green party counsellor that was elected on, let's face it, quite a gaza ticket has today apologised, though he does basically add that anyone that seems to have an issue with what he said is basically islamophobic. your thoughts on that? and in the first of its kind mass of resorted to a private prosecution for theft after the police basically turned a blind eye. what do you think to this? is it the start of a brand new trend and should it be also? speaking of the police, do you think there should be allowed to wear that thin blue line pat patch on their jackets used to commemorate their fallen officers? because over in the states, that symbol is apparently associated with some less than desirable causes. what do you think to that? also, let me ask you this what on earth is going on when it comes to this chinese data hack? are we tough enough on china or not? and last but not least, should you be fined £1,000 of you, your kids or your grandkids help themselves to some shells or pebbles from the beach? we've

got all of that to come and more. but before we get stuck in, let's cross live for tonight's latest news headlines. >> michelle, thank you very much. and good evening to you. it's just coming up to 6:02. the top story from the newsroom tonight. the defence secretary has told mps that the government cannot rule out state involvement in a hack at the ministry of defence, but he refused to confirm reports that china was behind it. beijing strongly denied it was behind the cyber attack, calling the accusations completely fabricated . grant shapps has fabricated. grant shapps has apologised to arms. armed forces personnel confirming up to 270,000 have a potentially been affected. speaking in the house of commons earlier, he said it shows that the world is becoming more dangerous for reasons of national security . national security. >> we can't release further details of the suspected cyber

activity behind this incident. however i can confirm to the house that we do have indications that this was the suspected work of a malign actor and we cannot rule out state involvement. this incident is further proof that the uk is facing rising and evolving threats. >> grant shapps now speaking earlier this afternoon in scotland, john swinney says he's over the moon to be voted in as the scottish parliament's choice to be the next first minister. he was backed by 64 of his colleagues and his name will now be submitted to the king. he replaces humza yousaf, who sent his own official letter to king charles earlier confirming he was stepping down. speaking from the front bench for the final time in the role, mr yousaf said his heart would forever belong to scotland. labour's newest mp has taken his seat in the house of commons after labour won the by—election in blackpool south. chris webb took his seat, beating conservative david jones

in the third largest swing to labour from the conservatives in a by—election since the second world war. sir keir starmer suggests it's a sign of things to come in the general election . to come in the general election. >> the message is clear that the voters are looking again at a changed labour party and putting their trust and confidence back in us, and i say thank you to every single voter who did that. but there is a wider message here because the nation wants change. the nation wants to turn a page on 14 years of chaos , of a page on 14 years of chaos, of division and of failure, and usherin division and of failure, and usher in a decade of national renewal . renewal. >> meanwhile, the shadow chancellor claims the government's optimism about the uk economy is, she says, deluded and out of touch. speaking in london earlier, rachel reeves said the conservatives aren't being honest with voters . being honest with voters. >> the conservatives are gaslighting the british public. they say we've turned a corner and they ask people to stick

with the conservative party, but it is those very conservatives who are set to leave the average household. £870 worse off through stealth taxes and increases in council tax . the increases in council tax. the prime minister claims that he is delivering for the country , but delivering for the country, but the british people did not order what this prime minister is delivering . delivering. >> in other news tonight, we've heard that a five month old boy who suffered a cardiac arrest at legoland windsor in an alleged incident of child neglect, has died in hospital . the 27 year died in hospital. the 27 year old woman, from essex, was arrested at the resort and has since been released on bail. police say they're not seeking any other suspects, though detectives from the child abuse unit are now asking anyone with information, particularly those at legoland's coastguard hq boat ride on thursday afternoon to come forward. and finally in the

us, stormy daniels has told a court there that donald trump told her that having sex was the only way she was going to get out of a trailer park. the former adult film star has been revealing intimate details of her encounter with the former president, as she testifies at his hush money trial . she his hush money trial. she claimed that he wore satin pyjamas when he greeted her at his hotel suite, before she was asked to spank him. the former president denies having sex with miss daniels and 34 counts of falsifying business documents . falsifying business documents. those are the headlines. more at 7:00. until then, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gbnews.com slash alerts . go to gbnews.com slash alerts. >> thanks for that, sam. what a great image there to leave us all with donald trump in satin pyjamas, spanking . that is an pyjamas, spanking. that is an image you don't really want to have in your mind as you enter your tee time, i'm absolutely sure, but thanks for those headunes

sure, but thanks for those headlines nonetheless . yes, i am headlines nonetheless. yes, i am michelle dewberry. i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. i hope you all had a wonderful bank holiday weekend. there's lots i want to get stuck into on my show tonight. i want to talk policing. i want to talk the latest in israel and gaza and lots, lots more. but before i do, i just want to take a second just to raise awareness of something that's very close to my heart. actually, this week is actually the cleft lip and palate awareness week. did you know that 1 in 700 babies is born with a cleft? and there's a fantastic charity ? if anyone is fantastic charity? if anyone is affected by this issue, they are called clapa and they do an absolutely fantastic for job anyone that is affected by that issue . so, anyway, i shall issue. so, anyway, i shall introduce, without further ado, the panel that's keeping me company until 7:00 tonight. i've got the former brexit party mep anunciata rees—mogg and the author and political organiser james schneider. good evening to both of you. and you know the drill. it's not just about us. it is about you guys at home as

well. what's on your mind tonight? get in touch. all the usual ways @gbnews, @gbnews. gb views actually @gbnews .com is the email address. or you can go on to the website gbnews.com/yoursay of course you can talk to me on twitter or x however you fancy it. we're open to all routes here on dewbs& co, but of course cast your mind backif but of course cast your mind back if you will, to those local elections . yes, of course, the elections. yes, of course, the issues have been collections and council tax was of course on the minds of many, but you will be familiar with the fact that also on the minds of many was a situation in evolving in gaza. it really was a key issue to many, many people. and we saw, of course, didn't we? people get elected on the back of that ticket. one of those people, the green party councillor , you'll green party councillor, you'll be familiar with his celebration. he's had to issue an apology today. let's remind ourselves, though, of what he said . said. >> the voice of palestine. hello. >> hello . he's said today that

>> hello. he's said today that he's sorry for any upset that was caused by what he had to say . it wasn't his intention. he goes on to say he doesn't support violence on either side, he also went on to say that any misrepresentation of him shouting allah akbar suggests islamophobia to me was what he said. now i've got to say, the situation in gaza has very unfortunately escalated , over unfortunately escalated, over the last kind of few hours and days , we've also seen a days, we've also seen a situation where there has been a ceasefire deal that's been agreed to by hamas, but rejected by by israel. and i'm pondering tonight, annunciator what do you think is going to happen in response to this kind of escalating situation in gaza, here on the streets in britain ? here on the streets in britain? >> what happens here, i think is very hard to know. but on the ground in israel and palestine, i think these talks are going to continue. it does seem like they are getting closer to finding some kind of common ground. and

israel rejecting the ceasefire proposal, they hamas, were not going to release all of the hostages they took in october. they wanted in return the release of their own prisoners who are serving life sentences . who are serving life sentences. and israel has been burnt by doing that before they in fact, some of them were found to be the organisers of the atrocities this october that were released in 2011. these things can have very long term effects on the country. i don't think hamas are being reasonable , but i think it being reasonable, but i think it is great that there are talks ongoing , and it does seem as ongoing, and it does seem as though there's a narrowing of the differences , james, your the differences, james, your thoughts, i think that the unanimous decision by israel's war cabinet to reject the deal, which in effect, turns their back on the hostages, especially when there are protests in israel every day for accepting the deal, including family members of the hostages , and to

members of the hostages, and to instead begin the assault on rafah, which we've been told by every single humanitarian agency possible that it will intensify what is already a catastrophe. >> 1.4 million people are >>1.4 million people are already seeking shelter. >> they just let hamas smuggle weapons across the border. >> please allow me to finish . it >> please allow me to finish. it shows contempt for life. of course. contempt for palestinian life, but also contempt for life of the hostages. and it shows that the real war aims are not the return of the hostages, but are the continuation of israeli state policy, which is to annexe as much of the holy land as possible, using ethnic cleansing as the method under the excuse of self—defence. that is what we have seen . have seen. >> the israeli people have the ability to vote for who leads them and therefore what direction they go in, which can't be said to be true of those who are forced to live under hamas, who may have elected them once and have been ruled by them ever since,

without any say in it whatsoever. they are being used as human shields. this is completely one sided that the israelis did not ask to be attacked. in october, however, 1200 gazans did not. 200 were taken and we don't even know how many of those hostages are still alive. it two wrongs never make alive. it two wrongs never make a right , but alive. it two wrongs never make a right, but the idea that they should just lie down and hand back over the prisoners that have actually committed serious crimes is absolutely ridiculous. >> there are thousands of palestinians in pre—trial detention who have not been found to have committed any crimes. >> there are thousands of palestinians who work in israel and come and go that this is it's not as black and white as you would like to paint it. >> no, i'm responding specifically to your point about hamas asking for the return of palestinian political prisoners. these are thousands of people, many most of whom have had no

charges brought against them. >> the lifers most certainly have. that's why they've got life sentences. >> let me ask you this. let me bnng >> let me ask you this. let me bring it back to this local election issue here. i've just been playing the clip there of the candidate, one of the councillors, sorry, that got elected in the leeds area and that kind of celebration there. and the green party is saying now that they're going to, you know, conduct an investigation. he's kind. i mean , i would say he's kind. i mean, i would say he's kind of said sorry. he would say that he's fully said sorry, but he's also chucked a line in there about, islamophobia. yeah. do you think it was right that gaza played such a key role in a local election, which to me, a local election, which to me, a local election, it's about how many bins do i have outside, you know, things like council tax, i don't know, potholes. those kind of things. it's not necessarily about international affairs. >> i completely agree with that. but i think it's actually much worse than that. and it's very much bringing religion into local politics and british politics, where we have had many a problem over the last few centuries with religion playing

a very large part in our society, that we have got rid of as a dangerous threat and bring sectarianism back to mainland uk is a great worry. >> do you agree with that? germ's? >> we have very few real, meaningful democratic institutions in our country and most people, when they get to vote, it would be wonderful if when you voted, it felt like it was really making a difference on potholes and on council tax, but that is not how most people feel, which is why the overwhelming majority of people don't vote in local council elections. people will use elections. people will use elections to express whatever, whatever it is that is meaningful to them in those elections. the elections that annunziata was elected in for, for example , were quite for example, were quite meaningless elections in that they were to a body that we were going to leave, that isn't won't guarantee to leave. >> actually, at that point, theresa may was doing her damnedest to keep us in. that wasn't the labour party, that wasn't the labour party, that wasn't a democratic body itself .

wasn't a democratic body itself. i would agree it completely. >> that has very little, very little ability for local councils. it's very identifiable . so the reason why people use their vote to elect you was because they wanted to. >> they wanted very different . >> they wanted very different. >> they wanted very different. >> it's the same thing they wanted. they wanted to demonstrate that they wanted to leave the eu. that's why they voted for you. and i think that's completely reasonable thing to do. if voters wanted was a parliament, they wanted to vote. this was they wanted to be connected. if they wanted to vote to say, i don't like rishi sunak or i do like somebody else, or i want my bins done in a different way, or i don't like a different way, or i don't like a genocide carried out with british complicity. they're allowed to do that. none of that is remotely frightening or sectarian or anything else like that. >> i don't know how many doors you knock on in the average election, asking people what they actually think, but in fact, the british people are incredibly well educated and do know what they're voting for. time and again, i'm surprised i did not say that they know what they're voting do bring up that thatis

they're voting do bring up that that is not being emptied, the potholes on their lane or their street. the local schools in county council elections. all these things do come up regularly, far more often than any of the national mainstream issues. they may say, i don't like keir starmer or i don't like keir starmer or i don't like rishi sunak, but they talk to you about the issues and that is what those elections are for, and that is what most people use them for historically. >> so my argument is not that people don't want to vote on issues. of course. they absolutely do. but when we have absolutely do. but when we have a pretty denuded democratic system, as i'm sure you would probably agree , there are not probably agree, there are not very many opportunities to make those positions on whatever it might be on local schooling, on roads, on bus routes , and yes, roads, on bus routes, and yes, on international policy to make those felt . those felt. >> what do you makes it all at home? as always, you can have the final say on that matter. what did you vote for when it came to your local elections? was it those issues really,

really close to your home or was it much broader afield? i want your thoughts on that as well. coming up after the break, i want to talk to you. we all know by now that shoplifting is going through the roof, and we also know it's quite difficult to get perhaps a proper criminal prosecution. so do you think we need to start going down the road then, where we've seen marks and spencer's do this, where the pursued basically a private prosecution which has seen one thief go to jail, is that really the future ? should that really the future? should it be the future? i mean, we pay a lot of money for policing in this country. do we not? also, i want to ask you, when it comes to policing in the uk, that thin blue line badge, do you think that police should be able to wear that when out on active duty or not? i'll see you

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry keeping you company till 7:00 tonight alongside me. annunciator rees—mogg and jem schneider remain. welcome back.

everybody i want your thoughts in terms of the situation that we've just been discussing, how how impactful do you think the awful escalations in gaza are going to be here on the uk? and i was also asking you as well, did you vote on those local elections for issues close to your home, or perhaps further afield, i've got to say call me old fashioned, says ann. but i just want councillors to stand only on local issues, not something else. and he says, you all seem to have misunderstood the nature of democracy. it's not based on the issues you say people should vote on. it's for the electorate to decide what issues they vote on. if people vote on the basis of a situation in gaza, he says, that's up to them. and if you don't like it, stand against those candidates. they go, that's all. everyone at home. let's talk crime, shall we? because, we all know by now that shoplifting seems to be, in lots of occasions, going through the roof. but what do you do about that? that is the million

dollar question. many people will say that the police don't seem to perhaps be taking it as seriously as they should, and it's causing frustration by many. and i would say it's causing many thieves to be quite emboldened. we see those videos now, don't we? people just walking in and just pulling off, sweeping off whole shelves and helping themselves without a care in the world. and now a story caught my eye because you've seen now a fella with a 105 prior convictions. he has been jailed. but get this, it's by private prosecution. this was after the police basically didn't do anything about this crime, despite the fact that the company involved m&s actually had cctv showing a lot of it happening , annunciator. it happening, annunciator. it caught me. it caught my eye. has been interesting this because i believe that we should be relying on our police forces to, you know, kind of follow through with the law of the land. but when that's been failed , very when that's been failed, very often is the case now with shoplifting and stuff like that . shoplifting and stuff like that. is this what people need to do now, pay their own money to sort it out? >> i think it's perfectly

reasonable that they do. and actually it was how it always used to work that if you go back to 1981, virtually every prosecution for shoplifting in the met police area was brought as a private prosecution, and it has become done by the state. and it has clearly it is returning as they failed to enforce it to the private sector. and i don't actually think that's necessarily a bad thing. if our court system worked efficiently and was providing value for money because an awful lot of the time, particularly with small traders, it is by no means worth their while to proceed in a prosecution . prosecution. >> germ's. but i think that's that's exactly the problem . you that's exactly the problem. you know, perhaps in in this world it's fine for the masses because they will have the good cctv and they will have the good cctv and the security staff to give witness statements or whatever it is that you precisely need. but for, smaller victims of crime, they won't be able to do anything. i think, you know, very clearly. vie, the state,

the justice system , the police the justice system, the police are the ones that should be. that should be doing the job, and it shouldn't be falling through the cracks so that some people who can, you know, turn something into a pay to play seems to be, you know, fundamentally vie not equality before the law. >> and wasn't this one of the key things that labour was suggesting that they would, almost try and clamp down on what many people would perhaps call petty crime, but do we need almost like a broken windows type police , strategy? so for type police, strategy? so for those that are not familiar, basically what that means is that the police, you know, whether it's a broken window or a piece of graffiti or whatever, the theory would be that you tackle the small stuff, and hopefully that would stop some of the mushrooming out, not only hopefully that where it's been tried, it has virtually always worked and worked very, very well. >> new york was the biggest example, and by stopping people very early on in a very minor, petty criminal path, they don't go on to do the larger crimes,

is the general theory . and it is the general theory. and it does appear to work time and again in various different countries in london now, there does seem to be a complete disrespect for the police, and i think that is very worrying for the safety of all londoners and all visitors to london, that there's a lack of fundamental respect for them , because i respect for them, because i think most of us know they're not out catching people whilst they're doing things, and therefore there's not the fear that does need to be there that you might get caught. >> i always feel bad for individual officers , and i know individual officers, and i know that, former officers, i get emails from you guys. i know people, some of you watch and your children are police officers. it makes me feel. i almost feel bad for the individuals because as we saw, when there was that sword attack the other day, a lot of officers are really brave, and they go running towards things, and it's often not their choice , you often not their choice, you know, to focus on stuff like stupid tweets or to turn a blind eye to this. it's more the

policy that's coming down from the management level that dictates what they're spending their time on. >> yeah. quite right. and that's the level to be looking at it. and i think, you know, one word of caution about the broken windows thing, if you look , if windows thing, if you look, if you create new offences and they become a road into prison, that can be a way to teach people more for more types of crime. and we saw some of that with when we had asbos under new laboun when we had asbos under new labour, creating new types of petty crime, which then ended up with people in prison. but the more important point about trust in the police and so on, i think, you know, we're talking about a really large overhaul of the met and the need for a very large overhaul of the met. and i think if we're going to do that, we should start thinking again about where policing should start, which should be in the community and with community oversight. so to so any reform of the police should try to start more at that level. you're you're saying more at the level of an individual officer and they're beat. and then how does that connect up to larger and

larger structures rather than what i fear we will get, which will be a kind of a top down fix where they'll say, well, we'll do a different cultural change here. we'll do we'll have some different policy there and things will change a bit, but they might get worse in some other ways. >> absolutely. one of my close relations used to be a pcso and he new on his patch. every single 12 year old who was heading down the wrong route and knew to keep an eye and have a quiet word, which was incredibly effective. and as soon as you lose that connection to the streets, to the people living in the area, i think that whole level is gone. but the biggest thing about preventing crime, the biggest form of deterrent, is certainty that you will be caught and punished, not the severity of that punishment. and it's the, the deterrent effect is knowing that you will be caught. and i think that is the piece of the puzzle we're completely missing at the moment. >> and even caring actually , if >> and even caring actually, if you will be caught, because a

lot of people perhaps think that they might be caught, but actually they don't care if they are. let me ask you this, there's a patch that, has been kind of created to commemorate fallen police officers. it's called the thin blue line patch. so, as you might imagine, it's got a thin blue line running through it, running through the flag. now there's some issues about whether or not the police should be able to wear this on their uniforms. so there was a lady on social media, she'd seen an officer with the patch , a an officer with the patch, a recent protest, and gone online and complained about it and all the rest of it, and it transpires that actually there's a concern about the fact that overin a concern about the fact that over in america and i say this, it makes me cringe saying this. apparently there's some concern that over in america, that symbol as being captured by the so—called far right, and that is perhaps making it contentious here. and therefore the police shouldn't perhaps be wearing that patch. what do you think to that patch. what do you think to that ? that? >> i think that just as soldiers and airmen and sailors wearing a

poppy and airmen and sailors wearing a poppyis and airmen and sailors wearing a poppy is completely acceptable , poppy is completely acceptable, able to remember their fallen colleagues, it is completely acceptable for the police to remember those who've put their lives on the line for our country as well. and the fact that someone, somewhere, thinks it reminds them of something completely different shouldn't be either here nor there. >> term's i agree that in general terms, if someone somewhere thinks something is something, it should neither be here nor there. but i. i think that especially when the head of the met said , you can't have any the met said, you can't have any other types of insignia or anything like that. i think it is an easier path to go down to just say your uniform is your uniform. that's what you wear apart from on particular commemorative days. and so on, in which case other insignia and other things can be worn. but i think that's probably a neater way of doing it where you aren't getting into the what does the patch actually mean and what's its derivation and what meaning doesit its derivation and what meaning does it have in other contexts? you can just say you can't have one with a rainbow flag either.

you can't have one with anything for anything. you wear your uniform and that's that. >> yeah. apparently there's three exceptions listed . there's three exceptions listed. there's the red poppy of the royal british legion , the help for british legion, the help for heroes badge and wristband as well. but you see, what i found interesting is because we asked the met police about this and they said actually that this badge hasn't been banned. it's just that the official line is, as i've just described, that you can only wear those three things that one particular badge, the wristband and the poppy. but i also found it quite interesting that mark rowley , he was saying, that mark rowley, he was saying, i understand that officers cared deeply , obviously about their deeply, obviously about their fallen colleagues and that they want to show that they care. but he goes on to say that this symbol has ended up being both a policing symbol and is being used by some hard right groups. and that's why it's tricky territory. and this is contentious, but i would actually say we need to pack it in worrying too much about what on earth is going on in the states and importing that kind of ridiculousness, often into

the streets of britain , because the streets of britain, because many people here, they see that thin blue line. they absolutely regard it in its intention. and the officers are wearing it in their intention to show respect what people might interpret it, as in america is irrelevant. >> i would agree. i do have some sympathy for only being allowed to wear it on specific days or a particular period that poppies people generally wear for 2 or 3 weeks, running up to armistice day, and if it was something similar and there was, you know, i don't know, an yvonne fletcher memorial or something, totally, absolutely. they should be allowed to. but i think we do need to disentangle americanised version of our british emblems. and especially on policing. >> i mean, we really don't want to be going down the way of us american policing. no. >> absolutely. yeah. but we do import a lot of, american isms into this country, and it worries me, actually, because the two countries are completely different and we see loads of

stuff now. so a lot of, we just we started off the program talking about israel and gaza. we've seen a lot of protesting now at various places, like lots of the universities and colleges and stuff like that. and now that's getting imported here as well. it seems like so many people just seem to copy what's going on there, and are devoid of a lot of original thoughts. am i being harsh? >> i think in general terms, the us has such huge communicative power that we do end up importing things for good and for bad, and we should be more discerning about what things are good and what things are bad. i think in terms of protest tactics, generally, those flow in all sorts of different directions. and for example, the occupy that was in the in the us that really came from egypt and tunisia. and what was the occupy for people that are not familiar with it? sorry, occupy wall street in 2011, where they occupied zuccotti park, which was a very big thing and became better known because it was there in new york, but that had come from athens and from spain, and from egypt and from tunisia . and from egypt and from tunisia.

so i think protest tactics, they move around the world in different ways, but in general terms, especially on policing and community relations and so on. we should be very, very wary of importing anything from the us because their their methods of policing and their policing outcomes are not ones that we would want to replicate here, although we are still, as we all are, critical of what's going on here presently. >> yeah, we should also be very, very wary about bowing down to every single group of random people that seem to be offended about absolutely everything these days are you a police officer or a former police officer? what does that patch mean to you? the thin blue line. do you share this notion that somehow, in some odd parallel universe, this somehow represents the far right or the hard right, whatever that sentence even means these days? i've got to say that sentence to me almost has become devoid of any real meaning now. but anyway, does it mean to you that you respect your fallen , or is you respect your fallen, or is it perhaps something different? get in touch and tell me your thoughts after the break. shall we talk? china? there's been a

data hack, many pointing the finger at china. do you think we're tough enough on them when it comes to this stuff or not? see you in two.

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry , hi there. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside me. annunciator rees—mogg remain, as does james schneider. annunciator rees—mogg remain, as does james schneider . lots of does james schneider. lots of you guys getting in touch about those previous topics , polly those previous topics, polly says i'm an ex—met police officer. she says from the good old days. she says when it was a police force and not a police service. she goes on to say that there's nothing underhand about there's nothing underhand about the thin blue line badge , and the thin blue line badge, and she still wears hers with pride, she still wears hers with pride, she says, we ran towards danger when the sensible and perhaps instinctive thing would be to run away. she said the policing is a family that you never leave , tim says. of course, these thin blue line patches should

not be allowed on police uniform. he says police dress is for policing purposes. if we allow this badge, then we go down a slippery slope and he says, where does it end? you should. you be able to wear a palestinian flag or an israeli flag, for example? he says it is a slippery, slippery slope . so a slippery, slippery slope. so what do you make to it all? let's talk some of the other big news of the day, because now there's been apparently another data hack. let's cross live then, shall to , we, olivia then, shall to, we, olivia utley, who has been following this story. olivia anyone that's not followed the twists and turns of this story. can you bnng turns of this story. can you bring them up to speed, please ? bring them up to speed, please? >> well, yes, michelle, it's a pretty shocking hack, really, of , military information, third party contractor who does the sort of air systems for military personnel and veterans, including their payment details, their bank details, their addresses, that third party system was hacked by some sort of malign, country. all of the fingers point very clearly at

china, but the chinese government has roundly denied that it had anything to do with this hack. the government isn't actually able to say that it believes it was china , because believes it was china, because the level of evidence that a minister needs to have to prove that a foreign state has been involved is very, very high indeed. and it'll probably be weeks or even months before the government gets that level of information. but grant shapps the defence secretary, made a statement in the commons this afternoon . you know, reading afternoon. you know, reading between the lines, it is very obvious that he thinks that china was involved in this and he's been warning about the dangers of cyber security and also has been saying that the, the contracting company involved, there's going to be a full review of that company, not just in the mod, but across the whole of government. it raises a couple of really important questions for the government. one of those questions is about how these third party organisations that do really important things for the government, like air systems for military personnel, how do government, like air systems for military personnel , how do they military personnel, how do they get their, their rights to do

that? is the process fair? is it sensible? was this the right company to be in charge of such important information , when important information, when clearly their systems were so open to hacking ? the other, open to hacking? the other, perhaps even more important question is where does this leave the government in its relationship with china? over the past 15 years, ever since the past 15 years, ever since the cameron osborne golden era days of beijing, the uk has been very , very reliant on china. but very, very reliant on china. but increasingly it has become clear that china isn't exactly a friend to the uk. and there are lots of conservative mps who's been who have been saying for a long time now that the government needs to designate china as an official threat. that's something that rishi sunak has so far been refusing to do. the question is, will this hack change any of that ? this hack change any of that? >> indeed, million dollar question olivia utley , thank you question olivia utley, thank you for that update. i've got to say, the chinese government, they must just be sitting there and laughing anyway because there have been no ramifications

or accountability for the whole covid stuff. never mind anything else. so i mean, they must think they can get away with murder, right? >> anyway, well, i love that grant shapps in every time this kind of thing happens, it gets called a malign actor. and into my head pops christopher walken in james bond role, which is very appropriate because if anyone thinks that countries don't spy on other countries , don't spy on other countries, they should go back and read the original novels by ian fleming, because it's quite clear it's been going on a very long time. >> james. >> james. >> yeah, i agree, states hack each other that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. it doesn't mean it's good that states spy on each other. we are spied on by our own government, by other governments and our security services. also, i'm sure are active in other countries and try to seek out information in other countries . information in other countries. the only thing i can possibly see that you can particularly take from this is, you know, it's possible that outsourcing might be an issue when we might need to rethink some of the

security protocols around that. but from what we've seen so far, it's very hard to say. but from what we've seen so far, it's very hard to say . oh, yes, it's very hard to say. oh, yes, here we know that there is a clear failure and it is this because it's not like this threat is new. it's not like hacking is new, so i would just be i would just be cautious to not take too much of a political read into something which is basically the actions that states have always pursued against one another. i wonder what on earth they're trying to spy what on earth they're trying to spy for, to try and learn how not to do things. >> what are they going to be gleaning? what nuggets of any real information will you possibly get from our political system? there's a lot of talk about different countries trying to ban things like tiktok, do you think that's a route we should go down in this country? >> i think in america they have come to the conclusion that tiktok is a malign influence on american society and is purposefully designed to be so, but through a combination of intelligence gathering, but also how it influences the wider

population in their behaviour. i'm generally speaking, not pro banning things, but i am very suspicious of allowing major infrastructure in this country to be owned by unfriendly foreign countries. >> do you agree with that? germ's >> i'm in general think that major infrastructure in this country should be owned by in the public by this country. so i'm opposed to not only malign or unfriendly, supposedly unfriendly countries , but other unfriendly countries, but other social media as major infrastructure country. no, i wouldn't and i think the tiktok, tiktok hysteria in the us is quite similar to the russiagate hysteria that the liberal end of the us political spectrum did. we're losing control of the narrative . we don't understand narrative. we don't understand what's going on. so it must be some scary other, other force. now, that's not to say that tiktok and other social media in people's attention spans , in people's attention spans, in gathering data in lots of other

ways, doesn't do malign things. but the idea that this one and in the us, they think it's this one just in particular, because it's shown its users who tend to be young people, lots of images of the atrocities that are taking place in gaza is therefore a particular plot from china doesn't seem to be borne out by the evidence at all. that says a lot more about the hysteria of the us american political class than it does about this particular social media company, i've got to say, i do think we make ourselves particularly vulnerable if china are indeed such a threat, you name me, a handful of things that are not made in china or components of that are made in china would become, massively dependent on manufacturing there, haven't we? and also, i do think the covid inquiry should have a whole module that looks at the origins of covid rather than a lot of the nonsense. it consumes itself with. i think the outcome of that will be quite interesting. darren has been in touch with me on twitter or x, so michelle, can i just tell you that these thin blue line patches, there's apparently four of them, he

says, and he sends me a nice picture of them. two. there's one for police, fire, ambulance and search and rescue, he says. are they right wing? absolutely not. he says. we're not america, so let's not have recognition of our service here be stolen by something that's happening over there, here, here. to that darren, i will bring you back into the conversation after the break, but i also want to ask you, did you know if you or your child or your grandchild nicks a pebble or a stone from the beach, you could find yourself in line to be fined up to £1,000. also, eurovision coming up soon. goodness me. have you seen the uk's entry? see you in two.

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till seven. and on the outer. rees—mogg and james schneider remain alongside me. now. i was at the beach over the bank holiday, and i must

confess, i left the beach with what my three year old described as a rocky. it's probably this big, and it was just a massive stone, really. i probably have that kicking around my house along with pebbles and goodness knows what for weeks on end. now if your kids are anything like mine or your grandkids, you will yourself have returned home from a beach with a shell or two and a beach with a shell or two and a pebble. but did you know that? now if you do so, you could be fined up to £1,000 because cumbria council have said that when you do this, you're basically wrecking essentially the ecosystem of said beach. is this fair, nunziata? >> it's mad overreach, isn't it, that if you turned up with a jcb and a trailer and decided to fill it with sand , pebbles and fill it with sand, pebbles and shells, then maybe you should be convicted of something. but a few families are taking a handful of shells. i'm not going to get exercised about if they are that precious, and the council wants to make money out of this, perhaps they should

suggest a donation of a pound for a small bag of pebbles . but for a small bag of pebbles. but to try and find six year olds. my to try and find six year olds. my six year old was on skegness beach recently and she certainly collected a few shells. >> what be your six year old? can't find it. i would have to pay can't find it. i would have to pay it, but this is ridiculous, did you know it is illegal under the coastal protection act 1949? actually, to remove said material from public beaches, no. this is the silliest story that i've seen. not just today, but perhaps this month, if it is an issue and i'm sure it can be, coastal erosion is an issue. all of those things put up signs, try to tell people about it. i don't understand how possibly the first response can be to threaten people to say , it's threaten people to say, it's going to be £1,000 fine. it just seems ridiculous. and obviously there is a world of difference between a kid taking a pebble, a pebble or a shell in the most normal human way they could possibly be, which is also a normal human way to engage with the natural world, is to pick it

up and treasure it. and that's so different from whatever it is, sand mining or whatever it's called. with the jcb digger, it's very different. >> we was just talking about broken windows theory, wasn't we, policing early on in the program, saying clamp down on the small stuff, but this is perhaps taking that a little bit too far. but there you go. you learn something new every day. i had no idea that my child had basically committed a crime at the weekend by nicking a rock. anyway, a subject that i have never , ever watched. i have to never, ever watched. i have to say eurovision. are you a watcher of it or not? the uk representative he she has been speaking out. he says he has an ambivalent relationship with the union flag as it as it can be divisive and nationalistic. let's have a look at him, shall we? make me dizzy from the kisses? >> will you take my hand ? take >> will you take my hand? take me back to the beginning again , me back to the beginning again,

again ? again? >> i mean, is that really the best that the uk can offer? and if you have a very strange relationship with the flag, then maybe don't wear two of them across your nipples. it's all very odd what goes on, isn't it? anyway, if you thought that was a little bit odd, let's look at some of the other entrants. this is finland. >> me what? you may see if i care to see me slay. is there something wrong with the way i look? >> is there something wrong with who i am if i'm not all right, tell me why do i cause so beautiful tonight ? beautiful tonight? >> i mean, maybe i'm just getting old. i don't know , this getting old. i don't know, this is ireland. i'm down in my doomsday . blue doomsday. blue >> i, i, i know you're living a lie. i, i, i mean, what's netherlands up next?

>> dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit bam bam ring ding ding ding ding ding ring ding ding ding bam bam bam ring ding ding ding ding ding ring ding ding ding. bam ring ding ding ding ding ding ring ding ding ding . i ding ring ding ding ding. i mean, i don't want to blow my own trumpet or anything, but anyone that's seen me do a karaoke, you will know that i can can better than any of them put together. but i mean, really, the best that the countries have to offer. i'm not being rude or anything, but really, those were all truly amazing , only bad, and could win amazing, only bad, and could win an incredible competition of bad songs. >> and i think the uk tends to put up a useless contestant every year. this one happens to be a useless and political one, but the competition is meaningless if we look at global record sales, the uk and the us come out by far ahead of anyone else, and yet we haven't yet put up anyone decent in the last 20 years. people love it though. >> are you one of them, james? >> are you one of them, james? >> now i understand it's quite politically fraught and charged, especially this year and i am

this year. like all years continue my principled boycott on eurovision. however, it's not for political reasons, it's purely for taste, reasons that little shocking smorgasbord you just provided for us is the most of eurovision i've ever seen, and i've never felt more certain in a previously held conviction that i will never watch eurovision. >> but it's not for you. >> but it's not for you. >> it's not for me. >> who are these people that watch eurovision? are you out there? is this your kind of thing? is this how you spend people? love it. >> time. people love it. but you know, people are amazing. >> they love lots of very different things. we're we're a weird. we're a humanity. we're weird, ian, i think you were summed it up the best. you just simply say we're doomed. i can't, i can't actually disagree with that. it's always nice to bnng with that. it's always nice to bring a bit of light to the program, but i just. i can't understand who is out there thinking that that is the creme de la creme, the best of the talent, in britain, maybe my ears work differently. perhaps

to everybody else's, but it didn't sound like that to me. also, at the start of the program, i highlighted the fact that it program, i highlighted the fact thatitis program, i highlighted the fact that it is a cleft lip and palate week. john says, thank you so much for raising awareness. our granddaughter taylor is now 11. she's had numerous operations and she's a trouper, and she's benefited so much from clapper. so he says, thank you for that. i've got to say, did you know in this country you can abort a baby if they've got a diagnosis of cleft lip and palate? right. until the due date? it absolutely breaks my heart. does that, anyway, lots of you not appreciating that music and telling me loudly, you won't be watching eurovision either. there you go, james and carter , thank you for james and carter, thank you for your company. and very importantly, thank you for yours. don't go anywhere, though, because farage is up next, and i'll see you tomorrow night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors of weather on .

solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> good evening. here's your latest gb news weather update brought to you by the met office. whilst there will be a little bit of rain around and also some patches of mist and fog tonight, for many there's going to be plenty of fine weather through the next few days because of a large area of high pressure that's dominating the story across the uk. this means it's going to stay largely settled through the end of today and overnight. it does mean we will see a few patches of mist and fog, particularly towards the west, but also some cloud drifting in from the north sea further east as well. a dry night for most of us and temperatures not dropping a huge amount, many areas staying in high single figures or low double digits. so not a particularly chilly start to the day on wednesday. in fact, a fairly mild one and quite a bright one for some of us, though it won't be wall to wall blue skies. not at all. there will be quite a bit of cloud at times, albeit it does look like a brighter, sunnier day than today. the greatest chance of seeing any rain will be towards the far north—west here across parts of northwest scotland, perhaps northwest northern ireland, some outbreaks of rain

are quite possible. temperatures may be similar or a touch higher than today, but with a bit more sunshine around, it should feel a little bit warmer. the high pressure sticks with us as we go through the end of the week, and so we're going to see more fine weather for much of the uk, although towards the far north northwest here there may be a little bit more rain at times and elsewhere the odd shower can't be ruled out, but we should also see a good deal of sunshine , particularly as we sunshine, particularly as we head towards the weekend. largely sunny skies on saturday, and by then temperatures likely to rise to the low to mid 20s. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> good evening. a serious attempt by chinese cyber hackers to get the details and bank

accounts of all of our current service personnel. and many veterans, too. and yet the government doesn't seem to want to be straight with us about it. i wonder why. incredibly, we learn from the home office that 21,000 people, nearly all men who've come into the united kingdom illegally, have gone missing in the last five years. it is failure upon failure and some good news, too. a private prosecution against the serial shoplifter in south london has resulted in a court prosecution. i guess when the police give up even attempting to deal with shoplifting this is perhaps the way that we have to go. but before all of that, let's get the news with sam francis. >> nigel, thank you very much . >> nigel, thank you very much. and good evening to you. it's just after 7:00. the latest headunes just after 7:00. the latest headlines from the newsroom this houn headlines from the newsroom this hour. the defence secretary has told mps the government cannot

rule out state involvement in