source with kaitlan collins next coming up on 9:00 p.m. here in new york, we're continuing to monitor developments out of the middle east, where we're learning more about the ceasefire proposal that hamas, except in israel, rejected today and is really strikes on southern gaza. >> originally, questions about whether these limited operations will grow into a full fledged invasion of raw file, which by the administration has been warning against for weeks. we begin the hour right now. did they 12 and the trump much money trial and judges second, contempt finding against the former president of today and his warning that a third could mean jail time, that i'm prosecutors calling two longtime trump employees as they try to show exactly how michael cohen was repaid by trump's trust and personal accounts in 2017 after he paid hush money to stormy daniels back with the panel joining us

as well as harry lipman who in court today's in la times legal affairs columnist, host of the talking feds podcast and former deputy assistant attorney general i'm wondering what you observed as judge merchan worn trump about potential jail time. >> it was really sort of jaw dropping. we've been having different judges and different courts kind of wag their finger there's but he looked directly at trump, soft-spoken, but very firm. mr. trump you are out of rope and it was really the sort of statement we've been waiting for, for a year next time. you're done and it's sensible in a way because with only $1,000 to work with for other violations, why? i should he did all around, but he said next time that's it. and he really means that his credibility would be on the line as well as the integrity of the judicial system. it was a dramatic moment for jeremie, the point of the last hour, which i think is very correct that trump actually has been abiding by the gag orders since the violations, which has now

been punished for i think that's right. and he he seemed sort of solid at it, angry and he has been at least trying to skate around it. >> and now we're talking about jayyab. there's a lot of discussion. would he like it quixotic lee for political reasons? but jail, not fun for you know, just, just imagine the sort of know hairdressers, the whole did he say did he say next time is it or did he imply that? >> somewhere in between. so what he said is necessary and appropriate, which of course you say, but what was really striking about it was the direct address to trump. i haven't heard that before and we've been waiting. he really said, next time, but it's like a border of a directive and begging because as i said earlier, i i think he did a great job. >> the judge is like, don't do this. like i don't wanna do this. don't make me do this, don't put me in this position. >> let's draw transcription. >> i have it right here

actually, because he, he said this is a last resort measure for him that he does not want to have to do this, which i think is important to emphasize because i'm sure trump's allies have been taking the judge and saying he's being treated unfairly. he said, yeah, you're the former president of the united states, possibly the next is well, he said there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me. and he said to take that step, would one disrupt these proceedings, which i imagine you want to end as quickly as possible, speaking directly to trump he said, i also worry about the people who would have to execute that sanction. the court officers, the correction officers, the secret service detail. all right. among others, he basically is talking about how involved it would be to actually take this action. but i think the other thing to remember when it comes to last resort, trump is violated this ten times. i mean, would any other defendant be able to violate a gag order ten times? >> we're not, going doesn't go to 11. >> yeah. but on an e felony, which is the lowest felon, right. for a man who's 77 years old, who's never been in trouble in his life, take out the whole prejudice an average 77 year old. he has a huge platform though to go after

these witnesses and to talk about these jurors. that's exactly why he was being found. >> caitlin, you brought up a point though and i think a lot of even the future, the present and the future it depends on the degree of violation. so if tomorrow he comes out there and says someone should take out michael cohen. i think donald trump will be put in jail immediately. if he says, i still don't feel like i'm getting a fair trial from these jurors. i don't know if the judge will say yes, it's a violation, but i'm not putting you in jail for that so i might have to graduate. >> i disagree about i think there's no more room to say violation, but you're okay. he might he might really try to keep from finding a violation, but if he does, i think no more room, but i do think that what he did today in addition to the comments there were four things on his desk that could potentially be violations. he didn't say that all of them were and some of them involve comments about witnesses like michael cohen and others. and so i think the judge actually by doing both things at the same time, was basically saying, look, there are leinz

here. i think the jury is aligned for him, right? it fully so the jury is their regular people trump aligning them to kaitlan point on his massive platform is a huge problem. we know that there are consequences of that, but the judge seem to at least in this latest tranche say, okay, well, him calling a witness. nice. that doesn't quite count he's drawing some lines there and saying that there are degrees to this and he's not willing to to just say everything in this category is a violation when it may not be there are other costs to donald trump here. >> real costs to irritating the dej to pushing the judges patients number one, if donald trump gets convicted, this is the guy by who sentencing him. let's keep that in mind and the sentence here will be, of course, up to the judge. and this will be a close call. i mean, if you look at class ii felonies, the lowest level of felony, most of them result in probation and finds not prison time, but some do. and the judge would be well within his rights to say, i'm going to take into account the fact that you violated my order ten times

the second cost is the team has his lawyers are flying blind here. they don't know who's coming tomorrow because they asked for that. they said, judge, we'd like to know at one point, todd bland said, i promise you, i will prevent him from tweeting and the judge says, i don't think you can make that promise. and so normally a defense lawyer would certainly know the night before who's coming tomorrow instead, they don't know if they're gonna be cross-examined get used reading is actually hurt his case. yes. intangible ways. so maybe he's taking that and look if he's self-interested, which is don't know if he's rational, but he's self-interested. you should be taking that into they're finding out the de, but they're finding out very close. they were complaining that they found out very late yesterday who the first witness would be today. they said the same thing about david pecker when he first justified but they are getting a pretty day say it's a two notice that well, just so we're clear, they know the universe of potential witnesses. the government is required by law to produce the universe. so they're not picking names out of hats, but the order in which they're called is as a courtesy is

different. having a prayer for anyone. >> the evidence de because you were you were very struck. i heard you say by the alawites hilberg nodes. on a document. let's put the documented. we showed this in the last hour. why why was this such an important piece of evidence two reasons i think. >> the first is it exactly corroborates what cohen has been saying for years including in front of congress all the way down to the actual kind of calculation. how do you get from one the other thing, so the idea that this was a scam, michael cohen was executing on donald trump jacking up this price and trump was ignorant of it. this shows at least an hour and yslow burge was working i would exactly what the figure would be. >> that's the second point. it obliterates any argument which you could have had after say hope hicks, that this was somehow cohen acting on his own. this is why so berg above him and they are doing it together all you can now say, you know, it's always useful to think about what they'll be able to i mean, if for anybody

who knows hello, so burger is if yslow berg is doing it, it means it's being done with trump's approval. the only sliver is somehow he's that the jury doesn't necessarily get well, the jury believed that without alawites were testifying, who who convinces the drugs have a really important point. i think it's the one thing, the one hole in what's otherwise 360 great and what in cohen has to say is this conversation, but you need a reason there's no count. how could why soul berg and cohen somehow be freelancing in this sense when everything we've heard about trump is what a micro-manage areas and the like. but at least it it says no, no more argument that is cohen on his own as hope hicks suggest it on a simple question i have. did they explain wha that $50,000 services i meant some big number it is. >> and well, what what conus said is it's a separate payment for some kind of technology kind of service that he had done before some people are whispering, maybe it's another kind of campaign thing, but i think it's just another

payment he made a few months previous there's also a $60,000 quote, unquote bonus. >> so that's it's a bonus. >> that's what they call. i'm just curious what that 50 grand is because that's a big number for next anology services when the pay off the hush money pay off is 130,000 and then you have this other 50 on top of it yeah. >> you guys might got all confusing for those jurors, but remember, you also had a witness today who said that donald trump is perfectly capable and sometimes did not signed checks. >> so he obviously could have said to all the& it wasn't just one check. it was it was i think 11 different checks, reimbursing khan, he could said, what is this? why am i paying this, right? that document answers the question of why he was paying it is although remember also earlier on cohen complaints to pecker. he's not paying me something kind of happened that made trump's so complying here and

they version will come with colin and also the question of why was it not a one for one payoff? why was it not just the entire amount that they just paid all of that? why did they instead do it? and those monthly installments, i haven't seen any explanation of that from the trump team just to look like legal services saner. we give you 35,000 to do legal services that you're not providing. one thing i was really struck by last week in the courtroom was just watching the jury was how closely they are following everything. >> i mean, pretty much everybody in that jury box when i was there was watching and listening very intently. so when we're taking notes, but everybody was that the way it was really agree. >> and today was kind of, you could say a slog of de you could say nuts and bolts day, but it would've been a day that a lot of jurors would have phased out. they were they were attentive. they weren't like wrapped and taking up, but they were attentive even through the i think the idea that as the controller said, donald trump basically almost fired him for paying what he i mean the

implication is that donald trump actually owed this money, but he was like, i i need you to make it a smaller number that is in your photo was not paying and people dipping them in i think like, oh yeah. >> what are you going to do his attorneys now demand retainer fees in larger font because there weren't chris kaiser works for my now got $5 million upfront before he did any legal one hour away, right about isn't this amazing in a way that michael cohen actually was paid because donald trump, but just typically, whether it is legitimately we owed are not typically does not want to pay what he's owed, let alone three times. >> right. remember that he wanted to go into past the election. has any wouldn't have to pair, but somehow 12 checks, nine of them signed by him. there's a little more to this story. >> he didn't pay rudy giuliani. rudy giuliani went to him to seek help for his own legal expenses. he would not pay him, but because he claimed that he said that lawsuits in his efforts to try to help trump overturn the election results didn't work. and so

when rudy giuliani went to him and said, well, i did all this on your behalf. trump would not pay him. and now rudy giuliani is voting his own legal decker said here when cohen went to them that trump said, he's got plenty of money. >> we don't need to pay him and then he did something. >> i mean, this is why so much every day is riding even more on michael cohen because i'm brought back to the fact that michael cohen decided to tape trump in that critical moment to say i'm about to make this payment for you, michael cohen knew that he needed the proof he created the evidence of it, and was ultimately paid back. this is incredibly incriminating and sensitive information for donald trump. he did not want it out there. and michael cohen was the one person who knew all about every element of this. so when he gets on the witness stand, there's quite a lot there. it's always been inevitable that they were going to need michael i want to draw that link and let's remember if we say, well, why should donald trump have to know about the small bore nuances of accounting? >> because the prosecutor

charging with a small bore nuance accounting crime, they chose to charge that they have to link them to it. what the prosecutors have been doing. and i think quite successfully thus far is reducing the amount of gap that michael cohen needs to bridge all these documents as all this testimony from david packer and others makes what michael collins about to say and we all know about what is going to be saying in a couple of days or whenever he takes us then makes it easier to swallow, easier to believe, more plausible. so they're, they're trying to, they know the jury has to take a leap of faith with michael cohen and they want to minimize that. well, you always talk about that tape yes. that where he says to michael cohen, like you just take care of it, right? refresh my record. so this is a tape relating to karen mcdougal, a couple of months before the stormy daniels pay off, but this got introduced to the jury on friday and essentially, michael cohen says, we're going to be paying karen mcdougal and trump's fine. >> sure. one 50. how are we going to do it? and michael cohen says none? i. got it i got it. don't worry me and me al-awda are going to work actually trump trump suggests and trend someone who says right, 50, but, but right trump

says one 50 and trump says cash. i don't see that necessarily as deming for him. he saying we're just gonna we're gonna pay it in one shot. that does, by the way, cash doesn't necessarily mean an envelope filled with 100 dollar bills when someone buys a house with cash, it means a onetime project michael cohen understands him to mean that because michael says no, no, no financing, meaning we're going to do this more complex than just a onetime transaction. so i don't, if i'm a prosecutor, i wish michael cohen never hit secretly hit record on his own client. i don't like that tape it goes both ways. it gives some points to the prosecution, some points that offense, but man, if you're the prosecution, you have that burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. you don't want an a piece of evidence that has useful stuff both ways. >> one thing that we always talk about michael cohen's credibility understandably and i remember, i mean, everyone remembers this congressional testimony. trump is also on tape lying about what he knew about this. i mean, that iconic moment on air force one when catherine lucy, who i believe was with the associated press at the time, asked him what he knew. he straight-up lies and says he didn't know about it, even though by that time he'd already paid michael coe a backboard. so donald trump also

has credibility issues here. >> any lied to hope picks, it's clear here. she painter to say it, but she was saying no, cohen, this is not what cone would do when trump told me that he did it of his own accord. i don't believe it. oh, and told hope hicks he did it on his own she testified to that that's not good for colon. that's not good for the different hicks testified that trump told her the cone did it on his own, and then she followed up by saying, but that but she doesn't believe it. >> that's not what coincide to her as well, that several aspects of this are libman. >> thank you. thanks. >> everyone else say where there's next more details from the trial transcript just out tonight, including a portion of the prosecution step-by-step attempt to do what we've just been talking about, namely establish that link that ellie just mentioned, connecting the defendant to the alleged crime primes through the testimony of one of his former top mini-map. and later brock reviewed who's got new reporting and what israel may be about to do about a key crossing into southern gaussian this source we've

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>> let's get funky what are you concealing you a communist sympathizer sympathizer, streaming exclusively on macs we talked before the break about how prosecutors might tie the former president directly into the alleged scheme and the heart of this case, because earlier times you have to been said it was clear to him that the prosecution has already made its case isn't the tracks don't trump rhoad to michael cohen. we're not for legal fees and the business records of them were falsified. again, though prosecutors have not yet made clear what was the defendant's role in it? all that said, prosecutors today certainly seem to be trying to make that connection indirectly through testimony from two longtime employees about how the trump organization was run, the full trial transcript released tonight's speaks to

john berman is back with more so what what stands out? well, sorry, from the very beginning for the very beginning that michelangelo, who was the prosecutor from the very beginning when he had jeff mcconney h2 is the controller of the trump organization on the stand. he wanted to establish this was donald trump's organization that donald trump was the man in charge of everything there. so this was right at the beginning question during the time you worked for the trump organization, who ran the company? mcconney answered president trump colangelo, last before 2017, what was mr. trump's role in the trump organization? because he says i'm not sure. he was he ran the organization. he was the brains behind it. he i don't know how to answer that question. glandular. when you worked there, did you consider mr. trump, your boss, mcconney says, yes, it's almost like he couldn't even conceive of anything other than donald trump being paramount in this organization? >> and this is someone who i shouldn't. he's been on the witness stand before he testified in the trump civil frog trial. he actually got

emotional and broke down on the stand during that because he was talking about why he left the trump organization, why he chose to retire, and he was basically saying it was because there were so many subpoenas and investigations and how overwhelming this whole process was. so this is someone who got on the witness stand who doesn't have an ill view of donald trump and was really disabled to speak to trump's level of involvement here, the defense in the cross-examination today was trying to paint a picture of just this sort of chaotic operation that nobody quite understood. and out right? there's a little bit of testimony think was interesting where it was mcconney or actually it was the woman who testified the afternoon who was in the accounting department under mcconney, she said, all we had was pull-down menus. so when we're classifying expenses basically, we just had our choice of however many and i just i wasn't want to put it in as legal fees. so they're trying to to paint a picture of just sort of things happening at a lower level in a disorganized way that you can't tie back up to the top. now, i don't know if that's going to fly with the job

that's clearly the defense strategy here based on the transcripts, but that's a good argument for the defense, that this woman who is no, not a here if donald trump in any way and not in all that much day-to-day communication with him. if she is the one who characterizes the expense that is the crime here at the crime here is the expense. it's not the check, it's not the trump had to in order to be convicted from head to know that it was being characterized as a legal absolute because straight i think that the term that the prosecution is used, he orchestrated it and we'll see if that we'll see if they can prove it. i mean, the cases and over they've proven a lot. they haven't so far. >> here's my summation to the jury and you have a lot of latitude in summation ladies and gentlemen, we'll know about the trump presidency and we know what his reputation was. he was a macro guy. he was not a micro guy. he wasn't jimmy carter who wanted to know who was using the tennis courts in the white house. >> he didn't even want to read

a memo. >> he didn't want hear anything from anybody, but now these prosecutors, after they've trained their witnesses, day they are preparing the pur cross examination. now all of a sudden, he's mr. detail-oriented. what he's running the country, he can't be bothered with the details, but here for this $130,000 check for a billionaire, now he's all conservative detail. >> keir prosecutions going to say is he's detail-oriented about but his medea that's what the evidence says. >> this idea first mean it doesn't, couldn't it also be argued the other way, which is that if there's a limited options on the pull-down menu, trump would probably know what all the pulldown options are in the menu and be like, oh yeah, dude is only hush money was not one of yeah, i will say i will say jeff mcconney, the controller, was asked if trump knew about the pulldown menu. i have a whole exchange here. let me read this to you because he gets into this a meal, but this isn't the defense is the cross bove ask you just testified about a series of payments that were made to michael cohen and 2017, right. mcconney said, yes, sir. in that timeframe, 2017, michael cohen was a

lawyer, right? mcconney says, okay, meal beauvais says. right. and then mccartney's is sure. yes. >> and then bove says, in payments to lawyers by the trump organization are legal expenses, wright mcconney says, yes, sir. >> bove says, and you book those payments on the general ledger as legal expenses, correct. but connie says, yes. now here's the part that gets into the nitty-gritty of the mds system during you're 30 something plus years of the trump organization, you rarely had conversations with president trump, right? mcconney says, very few. and during the instances when you did speak to him, you didn't talk about accounting software, did you mccartney says no, you never gave him a tour of the mds system, wright mcconney says, no bove you did you have any reason to believe that president trump understood the details of mds? a mcconney says, correct, mds is the pull-down menu system. i believe but let me make one point though. >> the prosecution doesn't necessarily have to show donald trump opened up that pull-down menu and clicked on legal expenses. >> it's enough if donald trump knew and i think michael cole will say this look the plan

was, we put this whole elaborate reimbursement plan together because he knew and we knew it was stormy. daniel's payment and we were trying to hide it so it wouldn't come out for the election. that's enough that they don't have to show that he was clicking around the mds system. >> i thought i was just going or you're to me the idea that michael cohen is being in reimbursed in the form of a bonus, which has some form of salary payment plus money that is not paid for actual services that he provided. >> shouldn't that structure in and of itself show the jury that trump knew that there was a scheme to pay michael cohen for things that he had not asked actually done. right? he's allowed to pay him for things that are not actually done. he's not allowed to put in the books that he did something that was not actually done. it is a confidentiality agree. we call a hush money. it's a confidentiality agreement. you don't put in your books $130,000 payment for confidentiality between donald trump and stormy daniels. if he

put it down as reimbursement reimbursement to michael cohen in the book that's all. it's not a crime because that's what he did he told yeah. right he did it's now for a new roof. it's a legal expenses click and go to something else, someone else who has tremendous credibility, rudy giuliani said back in may of 2018, this about the payment to stormy daniels having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman 130,000. i mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal that money was not campaign money sorry. i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know, it's not campaign money? >> no campaign finance

violations. so they funneled through the law firm funneled through, and the president repaid it oh, i didn't know. >> he did. yeah. there's no campaign finance law. >> is zero. so the presidents, like every sean, so what does the show was made by everybody. everybody was nervous about this from the very beginning. i wasn't i knew how much money donald trump put into that campaign. i said hundred 30,000 akin to do a couple of checks for hundred and 30,000. >> when i heard cohen's retainer of 35,000 when he was doing no work for the president. >> i said, but that's how he's repaying that's how we have these repaying it with a little profit and a little margin foot pain taxes for michael about you. do you know the president didn't know about this? i believe i know about the specifics of it. as far as i know, but he didn't know about the general arrangement that michael would take care of things like this? >> sweetie remember that that

was it's been a while since i saw that him really gray i'll never forget when that interview happened and how caught off guard szaniecki was by rudy giuliani just admitting it, saying that no, michael cohen wasn't doing any legal work and he was just reimbursing them for paying off the ports are i mean, when we talk about everything we know now, that was a pivotal moment. >> no one knew that until rudy giuliani they went on tv and set it. even now, trump's attorneys, who born part of his team then when you ask about that moment, there's not really a defense because it doesn't eat what rudy giuliani said. >> i don't want to be offensive to anyone rudy giuliani said is that's how it works. >> the individual who is trying to well confidentiality agreement doesn't write the check to the other person. they write it to the law firm. so the right way to be done here, there was ever to giuliani said he just said the point that he was making there and the

takeaway that is that he said michael cohen did not do legal work. yeah. michael cohen was paid in the lead der for legal work. that's what's at the heart of this. >> okay. but that's the bookkeeping. that is the bookkeeping issue but my having done these confidentiality agreements, the client writes the check to me. i put into my escrow account, i write it to the other attorney and the other attorney gives it to their client. would with documentation that's a waste arthur. >> what you just use the word book kekas, bookkeeping issue. another word for that is crime. >> it's not a it is a crime if you lie and the book keeping at what is the crime if the client says to me, arthur, i want to enter into a confidentiality agreement with this person for a quarter of $1 here's a check made out to authorize dollar attorney at law escrow bro count. >> i put it in my my escrow account their it's their money. it's in my escrow account now from there, i write it today. let me ever had a crime, have you ever had a client pay you back over 12 months with one large retainer

check each month for a total of triple the amount you laid out no, because i know don't the short answer is no, but i don't have the type relation with any client the way michael cohen has with donald trump. he's an in-house counsel. he would rudy said is they had a general arrangement that michael cohen would fix things, would take care of these things for him. he said a general arrangement that is not as devastating as it may seem when you look at it from a lawyer, a legal law professors point of view. >> all right. >> next crime or i'm john berman. thank you. you could prime are more on the whole notion of a president writing checks to his fixer the oval office, joining us, one of his former top advisor for white house communication instructor will so far griffin on what she makes tebor all and what voters mind as well how we'd really happy with jesse l. >> martin they sit nine on cnn reading sabbath that's not good happen huge things happen david happens there were three learn

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call us now earlier and i would play that famous moment from aboard air force one and 2018 went on. >> trump became the first american president to be asked about where his attorney got the money to buy a porn star. silence the answer. of course was from donald trump, six years later, a jury will decide whether the business records of that transaction were falsified and done. so at trump's behest, joining the panel, former trump white house insider, his former communications director, alyssa far griffin. so i mean, do you buy elicit the idea that then president trump was signing checks? in the white house to michael cohen without knowing exactly where they were, what they were four. >> well, so i've got kind of a mixed perspective. i want to respond something arthur said because i think largely made a good point that donald trump doesn't get into the minutiae of things. but if there are two things he gets into the minutiae of it's anything public facing, how he's gonna be perceived in the press and money in my experience if there was going to be something that went out under his name or that became a story that he did. he was incredibly hands-on,

incredibly engaged, wanted to direct narratives. i did not deal with him as much on the money sayyed, but we would hear it from dealing with the campaign& on the outside that he's notoriously a tight wad. he's not somebody who he does pay attention to, how he's spending his money. >> so i think that's where that kind of an argument falls a little bit fly, it's two areas that's just well-documented that he pays attention to, but it's certainly what his sayyed is going to argue and it's not about argument be careful, you might get called to just i mean, those are exactly the elements of the case and i think that they would want to hone in on wine. the idea that he cared about how he was perceived. he cared about whether or not people knew about the stormy daniel's thing at that particular moment and that he cared about his money. he didn't want to pay it but he didn't heart with it lightly. to me, i can't think of two more important parts of donald trump's personality that are at issue in this case, minus the whether or not he knew whether it's just for what they were four this is what makes it hard for the prosecution that you can't

really make an argument beyond a reasonable doubt, which is of course he knew. of course this is how we behave. >> let's assume, i mean, let me write and that you just can't i mean, if you are having a conversation here about someone in the news, you can make that conclusion, but to the jury you really need to say witness xx said x, that shows donald trump knew what was in these papers. and i have to say, i'm no fan of donald trump. i would not vote to convict at this point if i were on the jury. i don't think that the case has been made there. i think the intent on the campaign sayyed. yes. but on the money sayyed, it's very complicated. today was not a second see day in core, i do think that document was powerful. >> the weisberg noem. >> yes, the notes. but even so, it does not necessarily make that direct link to him knowing it. >> and do you believe knowing what you know and the importance of alan yslow bergen, their relationship, weisberg knew where all the bodies were buried essentially

has gone to prison in order and he's not speaking, you can make an educated assumption, but that's the hard part, but the prosecution potentially are the defense wanting to call stormy daniels. >> i don't think that's particularly relevant to the case. >> it's not illegal to have an affair with an adult film star. it's salacious, sexy, it'll get people to tune in, but they have this one link. they need to make without a shadow of a doubt in it. maybe that michael cohen is the only person who can make that link and he's so flawed in this moment i do wonder though if stormy daniels would be able to offer insight into michael cohen not being able to operate without donald trump's authorization and the fact that he was stringing her and keep davidson along. >> they felt like until after the election and saying, well well, i can't get in touch with him. he's out on the campaign trail. are i can't go to the bank. i can do this. she could potentially shed light on they're receiving end of those conversations and what they heard also for the detail oriented stuff. i mean, the idea that trump is not detail oriented. it he is what it's something he cares about, what something he doesn't care about. sure. has intelligence prefers will tell you he stopped paying attention five-minute fits into their

briefing. but remember when donald trump was leaving office they stopped putting out the daily schedule, which every president has always done their daily schedule, what they're doing, it would just say that president trump was very busy making many phone calls and having many meetings because he was upset about i've got about the lower press office? >> did you write those it was somewhat beneath alyssa was in a much higher ranking position in the person you actually put this schedule out, something like a fourth grader would write like the president was very busy making important phone and they put it out every single day for the last three weeks of his white house because that's what he wanted it to say. >> he didn't want it to say that he had nothing on his public schedule. he pays very close to the fact that the fact that donald trump made most of these reimbursements in 2017 and he was in the white house is interesting cuts both ways. on the one hand, it suggests, well, he was so interested in this, he was so invested in this that he was taking time out from what he was doing as the president to make sure that these checks got signed and got to michael collins. the

counterpoint is well, he was barely paying attention on cross-examination today, emote bove is the witness. well, in 20 17, he was focused on being president, not these payments. so i'm sorry to say that. like each sayyed of every fact, but this is how trials go. the defense is going to have a spin on it. the prosecution is going to have spent i wonder i know alyssa, you didn't know trump or until the later parts of his time in office. but was he had all focused on his personal affairs. is business trump org when you knew him or was it all? >> he's, certainly was if it was something that again was going to spill over into the public eye like he had largely kinda handed that off to the sons were dealing with it. but if there was a bad story, if there was something, we'd always get these about his taxes are about his business dealings. he would care about how he's going to play in the preska getting a subpoena i mean sorry maybe she's already been met. >> thanks to our panel, more breaking news. israel says it is conducting targeted strikes in raffa and urging civilians to evacuated the eastern part of the city. of los earlier said the accepted a ceasefire proposal, but israel says it's not the one that they'd crafted with egypt. the very latest next this is a travel

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your inventory payments and customers saint across all the places we doesn't have to be lonely at the top, joined the millions defining success on their own terms richard journey with the fretrial today cnn this morning with kasie hunt, tomorrow at five eastern seven months into the israel hamas war in gaza and other csp. >> our proposal is on shaky ground. israel now says its military will move forward with its operation and raffa words, ordered evacuations immediately. the sound of gunfire could be heard a short time ago from the egyptian sayyed of the raffa border our. >> next guest reports that is really forces are moving to take over the palestinian side of the raffa border crossing. in the next few hours. and political reform and policy analysts barack ravi joins us now. so what are you hearing

about? what's happening on the ground right now? >> good evening, anderson. so as far as i know, these rarely forces are in the surroundings of the rough crossing. this was the, the aim of the operation that we saw tonight to take over the palestinian side of the raffa crossing, which is site. that is really important for hamas, not only because it's the border between egypt and gaza, but also because this think is a cymbol for the fact that come mass is still the ruling power in gaza and without the raffa crossing a lot of this image for the palestinian population as a whole is being tarnished and that's one of the goals of this operation, including also to put more pressure on hamas leader. he has seen or two, maybe move and be more flexible in the hostage talks. >> tom freeman in the last hour suggested that one motivation

of going into this area and holding this area was smuggling by hamas from egypt that this is a smuggling route yeah that's part of it. although the the raffa crossing itself is not where the most of the weapons were smuggled into gaza. there was smuggled mostly through tunnels, but the fact that israel is now at the crossing, we'll give it another opportunity to do something. it hasn't it hasn't done since the beginning of the war and this is from what i hear from sources where we have direct knowledge of this is that these rallies plan in a few days or a few weeks to bring palestinians were not connected two hamas, to take part in the operation of the crossing and in the distribution of the a that is coming from egypt. and this will be the first instance where there might be some sort of a governmental alternative and initial governmental tentative to the hamas rule in

gaza. >> who would they be? >> that's a good question. if you ask benjamin netanyahu, he will tell you palestinians were not part of hamas. if you ask minister of defense, you have gallantly will tell you, well in hamas, there are two kinds of people either hamas or fatah, which are the political ribosome so hamas that are affiliated with the palestinian authority. so most chances are that those are exactly are going to be the people even if prime minister netanyahu is still saying that he will not accept any presence of the palestinian authority& gaza. i think this is where this thing is going in terms of the hamas said that they had accepted a ceasefire proposal. zero says it's not the one that they had been agreed to with egypt urban working on with egypt. what do you know about that? >> what i think these were pretty surprised hearing can

master de announcing that it accepts a ceasefire proposal when especially because they did not know that there's any new proposal, that there were not aware of. and when they saw the texts, they saw this is not who we were discussing. this is a whole new thing. and one of the things i hear that israeli officials are also pretty frustrated with the biden administration that even though cia director bill burns was not talking to hamas, he was there in cairo over the weekend when this new proposal was being drafted. and the israelis telling me that they did not know that burns or any or other people from the biden administration were not transparent enough with them about the fact that there's a new proposal that this being formed. >> so what's the reason that hamas would make that announcement is it i mean, to sort of get on the side of looking like they're they're being rational, they were willing to have this ceasefire

and then israel says no and especially to do it when they know that israel is making steps, initial steps to go into raffa the hamas wants to stop this operation or wanted to stop the separation did not succeed, and they tried to push the ball to the israeli sayyed of the court now the israelis are saying, okay, we will go to cairo, maybe tomorrow, maybe they later to discuss this new proposal, but they also say this is not what we put on the table ten days ago. this is something completely different and therefore, it is almost as if we will have to start the negotiations from scratch. rock reviewed, it's great to talk to you. thank you we're now with cnn chief and national security correspondent alex marc board and senior military analysts and retired aren't really going in mark hurtling, alex, i know you've been tracking us involvement and see it's hard talks are negotiations is brar review just mentioned bill burns, ci director was in

egypt. what do you know about the director's role in all this he was in egypt and then he went to doha where we believe he's still is. >> he's had a very central role in all this and anderson brock is absolutely right. there's been a real evolution in the past week, egypt was working on something that israel had some input in. and then we understand that the talks between egypt and hamas were progressing. but in a way that the us and qatar, both of those are two other mediators felt that israel would not actually end up agreeing to those terms. so they kind of took hold of that framework. i'm told and when burns went to doha, he worked with the qatari prime minister to rework the language that was then hand to hand it over to hamas. and that's what hamas eventually responded to. now, anderson is you've noted, hamas is saying that they agreed to the framework, what we're told by us officials, it's more that they responded and they had a take of their own and we've seen a document from hamas that is still good to have, it still has significant gaps with

israel the good news is that the talks are progressing is brar mentioned they're going to be going on in cairo. israel is expected to send it team qatar is expected to send a team, the less good news is it is not happening at a senior level. it's happening below that bill burns level at what we call the working level, are the experts who go over the finer points. so these talks are inching along but significant gaps still remain. anderson i'm in general hurtling in any negotiation since odd one side said they've publicly make statements saying they've accepted the ceasefire deal. what do you make of hamas saying though well, it was fascinating today, understand that hamas announced or someone announced that they had accepted the deal that hadn't been coordinated on both sides is alex just said, but here's the important for part i think one of the things that we're overlooking as the element that affects combat and warfare that both the tactical and the strategic level is time. >> since the start of this war, time has been on the sayyed of hamas. it's a critical part of

their strategy along with their tunnels. and they've wrapped themselves around the palestine so that anything that can help create more of a humanitarian crisis, our gives israel a bad image is something that they want to do. it isn't just their approach. it's their strategic objective. and we're seeing that today is as soon as first of all, when the talks were going on over the weekend, as you know? hamas launched the team missiles at one of the crossing sites and killed several israeli soldiers. israel walked away at that point and said, we can't continue to do this, then today they announce it all the palestinians are shown dancing in the streets of gaza and israel now is the bad person because is there are conducting a rough operation, we say said they were going to do if they hadn't heard from hamas about release of hostages it's continuing to work against israel anytime there's a delay when time is on hamas aside, it

is not on israel side from a strategic perspective because we're seeing the world increased the singly turn against anything that israel alex, what are some of the details that proposal that hamas allegedly accepted? >> well, i understand it from the way it's laid out, it looks like the first phase is expected to be the easiest probably. >> and we've been talking for weeks, if not months about a multi-phase deal three phases, each expected to last around six weeks. the first one the hamas is expected to release around 33 israeli hostages but anderson, we're also learning they may not all be alive. these would be women, men who are elderly men who are sick and wounded. but if hamas doesn't hit that 33 number, they would be expected to compensate with bodies and they're around 30 plus israelis who are believed to no longer be alive. hundreds of palestinians, but also get released from israeli prisons. gaussians and the southern part of the strip would be expected to go backup, backup to the northern part of strip, but

anderson, those sticking points that i was talking about, hamas wants to see israel pull its military back, if not entirely out of the gaza strip, but away from central gaza, that's something that israel hasn't shown any inclination to wanting to do the others. the question about a permanent cease fire. hamas is made clear they want a permanent cease fire. but again, i said that they still have a lot of work to do to eradicate hamas. and that's why we're seeing the beginning of this operation. and raffa more gentle, more curling. thank you. the news continues, including san especially primetime coverage, the foreign presence, hush money trial, more after a short break myth has to be real imagine you didn't know whether you were next they were both di yeah. >> yeah. i was called it makes saw what turned out to be the biggest heist in history. >> it went from gold medal winning icon to a pariah would

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healthier, with the oraa ring i'm katie bot in washington and vif is cnn