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washington. and this this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you, live from new york today on the program protests on college campuses reach a breaking point as police make arrests and shut down encampment's is this impinging on students free speech or have protesters gone too far? i will be joined by an egyptian and an israeli scholar who teach together at dartmouth to discuss that and much more then swarms of armed drones powered by artificial intelligence may indelibly alter the balance of power.

>> former nato supreme halide commander james step redis tells me about this potentially frightening future and since its birth, the cia was a quintessential old boys club. but all that changed thanks to women like my guest joanna mendez the agency's former chief of disguise. get from her about breaking the glass ceiling while winning the spy game but first, here's my take the world is a tens place these days with europe consumed by its biggest land war since 1945 and conflict continuing to convulse the middle east these tensions would pale into insignificance. however, if a third of rina were to erupt in asia involving the united states and china those tensions have in fact calm down in recent months as both washington and beijing has sought to stabilize their

relationship but there are now cries in washington to change all that in an essay and foreign affairs map pottinger and mike gallagher argued that the united states should adopt a cold war style containment policy toward china, whose goal should be victory. that could encourage the chinese people to explore new models of development and governance unquote pardon joe acknowledged on the show last week that an effective us strategy might naturally lead to some form of regime collapse was donald trump's senior most aid on china policy and gallagher and outgoing congressman chairs the house select committee on china their views will likely shape the next republican administration. part adjourn gallagher argued that biden strategy, managing competition with china does not go nearly far enough the authors accused the biden t of pursuing a 1970s style detente policy toward china when it should be

pursuing a 1980s style reaganite policy designed to push beijing to the brink. according to them, we should welcome more friction and tension, with china this is an important essay because it lays out clearly the alternative strategy being proposed by some on the right. by putting their cards on the table pottinger and gallagher help us understand the reckless dangerous, and utterly impractical nature of their own preferred policy. >> china today bears little resemblance to the soviet union of the 1970s and 1980s. >> the soviet union was an unnatural empire cobbled together after world war ii with a decrepit economic model that had started to fail by the mid 19th 70s. china is the world's second largest economy and largest trading nation unlike the soviet union's totally state owned economy, china has a mixture of private and public sector. 92% of

china's exports come from a vibrant private sector, including 42% confirms with foreign investors despite its recent troubles, it is still growing at around 5%. and because of its size is likely to stay the world's second most important economy for decades the soviet union was an isolated economy, whereas china is deeply integrated into the global system trade between america and the ussr peaked at several billion dollars in a year. china and the us do that much trade every few days the ussr is gdp was around 3.2 trillion added speak, roughly 7.5% of world gdp. today, china's gdp is about 20% of global gdp most fundamentally, the soviet union was largely a natural resource economy, a siberians, saudi arabia arriving much of its growth

from extractive industries like oil, gas, coal, nickel, and aluminum china is a diversified manufacturing powerhouse with an increasingly sophisticated information technology industry that is second only to the united states in fact, looking back, it's clear that in the 1970s, the ussr's economy had stalled. but got to last lifeline when global oil prices quadrupled by the 19 oil prices collapsed. and then so did the soviet union we're the united states to embark on a policy of containment. it would likely find itself alone china is the largest trading partner of over 120 countries around the world, far more than the us. and most of these countries are eager to maintain good ties with beijing 82% of nigerians, for example, say chinese investment has been a boon to their economy. even european nations, america's closest allies, have made clear that they view china as much as

a partner as they do arrival emmanuel macron, noted last year that even in the worst-case scenario of a conflict over taiwan your should be careful not to mimic america's hostility to beijing. and while he got criticized for those remarks as one german businessman noted to me we all privately believe what macron said publicly german chancellor olaf scholz was in china last month hoping to deepen economic ties between the two countries. american strategies of regime change have rarely worked. think of cuba, venezuela, not korea, iraq, and afghanistan. and they are unlikely to work this time, especially in a country like china, where the regime is broadly credited with bringing major economic progress for its people after decades of poverty and misery, average incomes in china grew nine-fold from 1978 to 2015 the current bellicosity on the right reminds me of the growing demands for redeem

change against iraq two decades ago but this would be even worse because of china's size and engagement with the world. a strategy of containment and overthrow would take the us down a hair-raising path. sustained confrontation would unravel the global economy risk isolating america. and raise the odds of a world war over taiwan it is what sas sober reflection before embarking down this road for cnn.com slash fareed for link to my washington post column this week and let's get started on ben's and 90 people were arrested at a pro-palestinian protests at dartmouth college. >> they are some of the more than 2000 protesters who have been arrested on college campuses in the over the last few weeks is free speech being

squelched or are the protesters out of line joining me or to dartmouth professors who co-teach a class called the politics of israel and palestine burnout, avi chez is an israeli american scholar who is a visiting professor at dartmouth and is in jerusalem right now. as the dean fissure is a former egyptian diplomat who worked on the un middle east peace process in the early 2000s. he is now senior lecturer at dartmouth and is in hanover, new hampshire welcome both. of you bernard, let me start with you. i noticed in your biography, in 1968, when you were a student, you occupied the building and mcgill university i'm wondering whether you now continue to believe that students should have the right to occupy buildings and do all that kind of disruption that you did all those years ago?

>> yes, it's true. i was part of a group of students who occupied the political science department at miguel and i have to say, i learned a lot in that experience. but i've learned a lot since. and one of the things i learned is that universities are not these supercilious impregnable fortresses against which you batter with your ideas. but actually a web of relationships and norms and fragile, just like democracy is and we all have a responsibility to maintain these norm the norms are for debate, not for coercion and what is the dean? and i tried to do was model what that kind of debate would look like. i believe that if you are going to set up an

encampment on the green at dartmouth, which is really not just some marginal place, it's really the main thoroughfare of the campus where they're planning commencement and if you set up an encampment on the green, you're basically saying i believe in a conception of justice that's so fundamental to me that i'm going to coerce you to accept it or you're not going to be able to have something that's valuable to you. that's not debate. that's coercion. and if institutions that teach coercion prepare you maybe to be a commissar or a priest, but not to be assistant at the united states. >> as the dean, let me ask you about that. isn't we're not spoiling. fair that i mean, i would guess 90% of students are not part of these demonstrations. they feel like they need to get to their classes. they need to do what they're doing. is this is this

not coercion rather than education? >> well. it could be, it's we have to remember, students have a right to express themselves. they have a right to organize protests. if they wish and they have to be able to do this freely without fear, without intimidation. and also, it is pretty radical and shocking for students to suddenly be confronted with state troopers and police on campus having said this university is also have a right to protect free speech, to make sure that it happens peacefully. that it doesn't include incitement that it doesn't intimidate other groups on campus and that whatever disruption it causes and every protest has to cause some kind of disruption that this disruption doesn't derail the main role of the

university, which is education and learning now, there are cases where things are very clear as if you, i don't occupy a building and prevent people from accessing it for days on. but there are other situations where it's a fine line between are you annoying some students or are you intimidating them? are you making them feel unsafe? now, those decisions? >> have to be made by college leadership, and those are difficult decisions by definition, it is not that there is a laser line separating those things but ultimately, the responsibility of the leadership is to make sure the university is open and that there is access for everybody to do what they are. >> mainly there to do, which is learning but now let me ask you is this highlighting a fissure peter binary wrote an essay in which he said what all this is highlighting the philosophical issue is that there is now a

crisis tension between liberalism and zionism that has opened get up that i think he was implying that zionism being about a kind of ethno, nationalist state, is at odds fundamentally which with liberalism, which says universal rights fall yes well i think the word zionism here has become pretty mushy, you know, when i hear peter talking about zionism. sometimes i it's like lindsey graham talking about socialism i mean, i, i admire peter. i've known him for years and think i'm a very fine person. >> but i think the word zionism here is getting a bum rap. >> and anyway, it's not really relevant israel is a country. it's a home, it's not a cause in the minds of american jews. it's a place, it's a hebrew

speaking country with a politics and there are liberals in this country who need the support of liberals around the world and there are people who are illiberal in this country who i've been fighting for 50 years and we saw the robustness of this culture war for the last 18 months with hundreds of thousands of people taking the streets so the idea that somehow israel ieee some vague conception of zionism is at odds with liberalism just seems to me a tremendous distraction the reality of israel is that there are liberals here who need the support of people like peter b9, art, and others we're going to have to take a break when i come back, we will continue this conversation and get to the actual situation in the middle when we return for

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>> that's long disease, but scots healthy plus will cure it lung disease going around so like other people have it and it's not pick up a bag of a newscaster field to help me plus lawn through today. david, closed captioning brought to you by meso book.com if you or a loved one have mesothelial will send you a free book to answer questions you may have call now and we'll come to you 808 to one 4,000 we are back with bernard abeer, shy and as fisher who teach a course together at dartmouth as indeed, let me ask you your former egyptian diplomat, what is the price is? well as paying in conducting this extraordinary operation in gaza, because while you hear a lot of noise about the arab street, arab governments, for example ccs government in egypt hate hamas. in fact, the view hamas has a kin to the muslim

brotherhood and scc has jailed thousands then thousands of members of the muslim brotherhood so is there, is there a real price israel as paying, or is it as i suspect, a lot of people in the israeli war cabinet think they'll make a lot of noise, but the arabs actually are happy. we're taking care of hamas yes and no they're happy that israel if israel can weaken hamas, they will be happy. >> but the problem is they understand that that goal is unattainable. and then the question practically becomes whether they like hamas or herod, the question becomes, how do we deal with an organization that is there, that has capability and that affects palestinian decisions and that governs their approach to hamas they understand that this military operation will cause more damage to the palestinian civilians, then it's going to cause to hamas. and therefore, they would like to bring it to an end and find a path towards a palestinian

state. now, a credible path to a palestinian state if they're ticket to resolving this conflict and to both and to deal with the question of hamas but obviously to do this, they also have to pay a price which is to be able to give israel security guarantees. and so far they have been reluctant to do this if you manage to get those two things together, a credible path to our palestinian state. and then arab role in which day, according to which they take responsibility for palestinian security with israel. then we have a path towards resolving this conflict. if we can't have one of the two, then i'm afraid we will go back to the status quo ante before october 7 with the same dynamics that were there, which means we will be looking for another round of conflict at sometime in the future. >> bernard, you and as it publisher coauthored an op-ed where you argue, maybe out of this can come a broader

regional peace. all of that seems premised on the idea that israel will be willing to allow into in and it seems like from the polling, i've seen that seems further away than it's ever been in the last three or four decades, israelis are really not happy, happy to do that and that gets to this issue of the crisis between zionism and liberalism, which is israel as a country, but it is a country that has been occupying these lands, would 5 million palestinians, four, years now, is there hope that you can imagine a palestinian state well, the polling is a little misleading because it doesn't really offer the choice that is other than yes, no. >> if you ask israelis, do you want to palestinian state on your border? they think, oh, the attacker will come from calcic on next time. so no, we don't but if the choice is a regional deal normalization

with the saudis economic growth for the opportunity to resolve the problem in the north the sense that america is with you as they were sure two weeks ago, the night that iran fired these missiles. so that alliance no longer fears, feels merely hypothetical if that's the choice then forgot the polling. there's, there's a new opportunity here. and i think blinken is trying very hard to emphasize this. that it's not. do you want a palestinian state or not? it's do you want this package that offers this kind of opportunity? or do you want to go back to the status quo ante as is a dean said, and have to deal with all the blowback in the world for maintaining the

occupation it's going to be a culture war here as it has been in the past. and i'd like to think that reason will prevail on that wonderfully hopeful note, we're not ever shared as it in fisher. thank you so much. pleasure to talk about the view thank you for having us. >> thank you. >> next on gps retired admiral james step redis about something that will change the battlefield forever artificial intelligence powered warfare when we come back every piece of evidence tells a story how it really happened with jesse l. >> martin tonight at nine on cnn knew mr. clean, ultra foamy magic eraser with the scrubbing power magic eraser, and the clean barack don wash it, make

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to worry about these days, climate change and other pandemic, even the threat of world war three. >> but the unregulated development of artificial intelligence might be let's bowden the thread as any, according to my next guest, retired admiral james step redis, he was nato supreme allied commander europe, and is now a vice chair of global affairs at the carlyle group, his fascinating new book 2054 novel, which he co-wrote with elliot ackerman, very talented writer is centered on the existence shall tread ai poses for the future of the world. jim pleasure to have you on a fascinating how you're writing these series of books. >> and this one is really about the ai race in military affairs. >> so first i want to ask you, explain to us the power of ai. so your urine naval commander, what would ai allow you to do as a naval commander that you weren't able to do when you were actually commanding ships.

>> let me give you three very practical things. number one, it doesn't sound sexy, but it's logistics and maintenance artificial intelligence has capability to predict when a particular set of maintenance functions are needed. make sure that the sehr parts are in trained all of that done in a way that is much more efficient, much more cable that's huge because it keeps the ship's and permanent readiness. >> absolutely. we always say in the military, the amateurs are the ones talking about strategy. the professionals are focused on logistics. that's what wins wars. but number two, artificial intelligence will allow a command or seo the captain of a destroyer, which i was if i had an ai advising me plugged into my decision process that ai will have access to every naval battle ever fought. it would be capable of scanning the horizon of history and whispering into

the commander. you really ought to think about this. and then third and finally, and we're seeing the edges of this in ukraine drones swarms, bringing them together in very lethal ways currently can't quite do that artificial intelligence will make swarming drones the greatest threat by mid-century you talk a lot about the ai race and it's really us. versus china. yes. who's ahead you last marginally ahead. >> our mutual friend, eric schmidt, did a marvelous set of research on this. a couple of years ago, and he would have said, then, we're about a year ahead of china. my sense from my sources, china is closing that gap. this is the foot race that will determine geopolitical nicole superiority by mid-century are we building the right kind of military for that kind of world absolutely. and let me add another example

in terms of drones versus naval. look what's happening in the black sea. the russian black sea fleet a third of it is on the bottom of the black sea, drinking seawater as we would say in the business, why not? because ukraine has a navy, they don't, it's because ukrainians have used both air and surface drones. so to your question, drones are amazing. >> the minister showed them to me. >> they're they looked like toy boats and they're really highly lethal drones you can sync these hundred, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of rat worships? >> correct. and so the question then becomes, are the carriers still viable? i think they are for the moment, for the tenure future 15 year future boy, you get much beyond that and the capacity of massive swarms of drones company by cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, all linked together by artificial intelligence. it'll make those crown jewels of the fleet. >> our aircraft carriers vulnerable. so you've, you've

held very, very high sorry, office. and you know that there are some people who worry that donald trump, what he to be elected again, would politicize the military. do you worry about that? i do. >> and i think that the greatest aspect of our national security isn't a political military and we would edge in to politics into that force at great peril to the republic at the moment, all of my contacts in the active duty military reassure me that the military continues to regard itself as a political followers of the constitution let's hope it stays that way and when you look at nato, you were the formula supreme allied commander, grape, great title, by the way there are people in europe who worry a lot about trump and nader. >> and what i've heard people

say is it's he doesn't have to pull out of nato. he just has to say, i'm not going to defend lot latvia, lithuania, estonia, right? because it's a sort of in some ways the whole nato is basically it's a psychological game. it's the thread is psychological that the us will get involved that's what putin has to be calculating end of the president says something like that, the nato, the building can continue the meetings, can continue, but the heart of it is lost. >> now we say deterrence is the combination of capability and credibility. nato is incredibly capable that budget or the united states and the europeans together is well over ten times that of russia. the population is well over five times the size of russia so the capabilities, not the problem. you've put your finger on it it's the credibility and yes, i would be very concerned about

a trump presidency that did not actively support. and indeed lead within nato. that's a real concern from the former supreme allied commander of nato. >> my pleasure. great. thank you, sir. thank you next on gps, we delve into the world of espionage with the ci is former chief of disguise john amanda our last curve, but her adventures in the spice trade when we come back so this is the playoffs, great qiwei's trust each other. we're going to do a trust stand up, trust what you sent me up doc told you, here's a dummy last month, i spent hours on a spreadsheet color-coding my expenses, and tracking subscriptions. >> sayyed, i had it all sorted out and i got hit with two unexpected renewals and an annual fee that's when i switched to rocket man, an app that finds and cancels

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people friendly? >> but i'm deadly. >> i'm mj lee at the white house and this is cnn in 2018, gina household became the first ever female director of the cia. once you quickly named women to run the top three directorates of the agency, it was a watershed moment for an organization that had long been a notorious old boys club women like my next guest help break that glass ceiling at headquarters in langley and it's stations around the world jonathan mann has got her start at the ci because her then-fiance work there the only job she was offered within the typing pool. the agency's outdated rules and customs tried to keep her there, but 20 some years later after a series of extraordinary adventures in the spice trade overseas, john was named the agencies chief of disguise. she tells her extraordinary story in a new book in true face. a woman's life and the cia unmasked

journal. welcome you will one tasked with figuring out how to get a would-be soviet defector out of the embassy and you decided that the answer was water bottles explained we have a wonderful photograph of it, which illustrates what you did you know that the office that i was in while i was chief a disguise, we represented so many different skills. audio, if you needed a bug, if he needed a concealment, if you needed a microdata, if you needed secret writing, whatever the idea of what do you do with the soviet who might be defecting and coming to your embassy that fell in a special category of work. we did with some magic builders out in hollywood their job is to build deceptions and illusions. that's, that's how they get us hooked and sitting there afterwards saying, you can't do that we told them our problem

and they came up with this universal we called it a human transport device. a way that you could take a person anywhere in the world and walk them by a security service or whatever was there, load them into a truck and drive off. and it what we came up with was a dolly. the transporting device looked like it was loaded with cases of water with three crates of water and i have to say looking at the photograph, it doesn't look like it's big enough to conceal the human being exactly that is the point that is you would dismiss it. yeah. >> now this this one great photograph in the book urine the oval office. your briefing, then president george hw bush explain what's happening because you've got, you've got a head in your hand. >> it had taken us ten years, maybe a little more to create an animated mask. a mask. i can

sit here with you right now. with one on. we could have this interview you and the lips would be moving, everything would be everything would be moving. it. you would not know i was wearing a mask. so that's what i did with the president of the united states my office director, i never intended. >> you went to wearing the mask. i did in the middle of the present condition, you take it off? >> i went through security at the white house. i went through the secret service and the white house. i went into the office, told him i had something new to show him, gave him some pictures of himself in disguise. the president when he ran the cia, he really liked those pictures. i said, well, now i'm wearing something the best we've got i'm going to take it off and show it to you and i reached to do the tom cruise peel, which is misnamed by the way. and he said, hold on. and he got up and came and just walked around and was just he didn't know what he was looking for. sat down. he said, okay, i took it off and that's the picture now, you begin your

book with the famous quote from ruth bader ginsburg. >> i asked no favor for my sex. all i ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our next was that what it felt like at the cia? >> i thought she said it's so well, just, you know, back off and let us go about our work it felt that way, not every man i had, i had some good bosses who accommodated my desire to do more to do increase my responsibilities. but a couple of them really just obstacles in your way trying to shorten your career or move you out of their way. >> do you think i mean, now, there was a point at which after gina has pokemon, that the five top jobs at the cia were all held by women. has it? completely changed? i loved your introduction i don't there's a piece of the cia. >> the piece that i was in the

operational, the overseas feet on the ground meeting with who are risking their lives and a lot of countries in russia, they are really risking their lives the men thought no one's going to pay any attention to us. and then in the sandbox, in the middle east, they said, you can't work there because you have no women have no value in that part of the world you think they're going to think that you can protect them while they're working for us those men were wrong. women can bring a different set of skills to working with these these assets, these foreign assets. i think we've proven again and again that we can do that job as well as the men can sometimes better. >> this is such an extraordinary career. i should thank you for it and for sharing it with us. >> thank you for for having this conversation next on gps europe's power is shifting

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direct redefining insurance how it really happened tonight at nine on cnn closed captioning is brought to you by hands-free skechers. >> bob's for dogs, footwear. >> it's never been easier to put on your shoes and help pets and need at the same time with new hansberry skechers, bob's for dog sports, and slip in and go and they've already helped save over 2 million and now for the last look more than 20 years ago, us secretary of defense donald rumsfeld poised to helm the american invasion of iraq over vociferous french and german objections dismiss the outcry is coming from old

europe he said, if you look at the entire nato europe today, the center of gravity is shifting to the east rumsfeld was wrong about iraq, but right about europe more than ever before political power and energy is shifting eastward towards new europe. >> as historian timothy guard nash told the new york times, the voices of central and eastern europeans are being listened to more and taken more seriously in the county sorts of europe major was growing and deploying resources eastward. the catalyst is of course, eastern europe's belligerent neighbor, russia look at poland. it has beefed up its own defenses, pledging far more than the nato target of 2% of gdp. in fact, it's president proposes a new 3% target for all nato members. this year, poland will spend around 4% of its gdp on the military it also plans to nearly doubled its land forces to 300,000 soldiers

it's spent billions of dollars on state of the art weapons as the economist noted, poland intends to feel more tanks that are operated by the armies of germany, france, britain, and italy put together poland's leadership goes beyond defense spending. most arms that reach ukraine from the west come through poland. it has granted temporary protection status to nearly 1 million ukrainians since the invasion, more than any country in europe, except germany for eastern europe, the conflict with russia is existential. but as the ft nodes, because of the shift in the continents attention, eastern europe has never been more safe last week, poland and lithuania conducted joint military drills around the seawall, key gap. that's a 60 miles strip of land between belarus essentially russia as vassal state and kaliningrad are russian territory off the mainland, sandwiched between lithuania and poland the gap

has historically been the greatest weakness of the baltic states, lithuania, latvia, and estonia if russia captured the walkie gap, it would cut off those three former soviet states from the rest of nato but the danger posed by a russian occupation of the sawadi gap diminished when nato expanded to include to northern neighbors sweden and finland now as ingredient schumer nature, lithuania's prime minister told the ft the baltic sea has become a nato lake. the three baltic states have a maritime border with nato members. the walkie gap is no longer a fatal weakness in fact, the baltic states, traditionally the most vulnerable in the alliance, appear newly energized by russia's invasion of ukraine estonia, latvia, and lithuania agreed in january to build hundreds of concrete bunkers on their borders with russia and belarus according to, the fte. historically, nader's plan for the baltic countries should russia have invaded them was to

allow it to happen before fighting russia of some months later now, the strategy is to defend these countries from the first meter deterring russia from attacking in the first place. in 2017, nader's and battalions of troops to three countries, each battalion comprised of about 1,000 soldiers. it is now increasing those numbers three to five fold and take a look at this map from political of native defense spending last year, the country is nearer to russia, devote more of their gdp to defense old europe, france, germany, italy, and spain have chronically underfunded armies by comparison perhaps no country is more emblematic of the way the russian invasion is shifting focus in europe than sweden russia's invasion prompted the country to give up its 200 years of neutrality and join nader in september in advance of the acceptance of the nadir of bid it announced a

28% increase in military expenditure for 2024 adding that the country is facing the most serious security situation since the end of the second world war all europe nurtured trade and diplomatic ties to russia and saw them come to nothing when russia invaded ukraine new york could never afford that optimism now, the most vulnerable countries in nato all those closest to russia have begun to take a leadership role in the block. this could change the nature of european defense and foreign policy for decades thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week i would see you next week now they're shooting going into the crowd i'll show you it's happening from him the whole now and they're giving orders to disperse any feels like a long

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